Beyond Consulting

7: From Consulting to B2B Tech Entrepreneurs

Beyond Consulting with Michael McCarroll and Irina Egorova



Ken Kanara: Hello, and welcome to Beyond Consulting brought to you by ECA Partners. The only podcast dedicated to helping our listeners navigate the wide variety of options they have after a career in consulting. I’m Ken Kanara host of Beyond Consulting and CEO of ECA Partners, a specialized project staffing, and an executive search firm focused on former management consultants and private equity.

Each week I host guests that have spent time in consulting and made some sort of pivot or career change. And the goal is really to help our audience understand all the options they have available to them. And ideally learn from our guests, both in terms of kind of what they did right. And things they wish they would’ve done differently.

Today, we welcome Michael McCarroll and Irina Egorova to the studio. Irina, I hope I pronounced your name right. But thanks. Thanks, Michael and Irina so much for joining us.

Michael McCarroll: Good to be here.

Ken Kanara: You bet. So for those of our guests that don’t know, Michael and Irina are highly successful serial entrepreneurs and also former consultants.

I’m gonna, I’m gonna turn it over to you two, I’d love to just have you give us kind of an introduction and a background on yourselves, and then we can kind of jump into Teamraderie and in terms of kind of what you do.

Irina Egorova: Thank you, Ken, I’ll start. First, it’s a pleasure to be here today and we’ve known each other for a few years.

And I guess we first met back when I was working at Lattice Engines and leading a sales organization there. And ECA team really helped us grow our team and find exceptional talents. So thank you for that. And just quick introduction for myself. I’ve oldest laughing. So I have an education background in mathematics and computer science started my career at SAP, then spent five years at BCG and then at a startup called lattice engines.

And after that I found a Teamraderie by the way together.

Ken Kanara: Excellent. Thanks for that. Thanks for joining us.

Michael McCarroll: Yeah. So again, great to be here. Michael McCarroll. My favorite subject was actually engineering seven engineer by training works in engineer for about five years in semiconductors and. I spent five years, three years actually, I’ve been McKinsey felt like longer out and then pursued a career in entrepreneurship.

So this is the third company I’ve started. The second one actually started in collaboration with a couple of other people. I met while working at McKinsey. And I, what I would say is I think Irina both believed that the time we spent in consulting has benefited us for there for the rest of our life.

In part it’s why we found kinship with each other. But it also just gives us a set of tools. I think that we’ve, we’ve really valued and taken forward into what we do now.

Ken Kanara: So those are probably two of the most humble introductions that I’ve, that I’ve ever received from a to two incredibly successful people.

So maybe I’m going to, I’m going to have to dig a little to, to learn here more guys. So first in terms of kind of what you’re doing now, you know you know, newsflash, I am I am I’m a customer and I’m a big believer in what you’re doing, but tell me, tell our guests kind of what it is and how and how you kind of got the idea.

Michael McCarroll: Sure. Yeah. So team raderie is a solution to the problem that anyone who manages people, faces, which is how do I take a group of highly skilled individuals. And as a, as a manager of that team, how do I create a context on that team that lets those individuals gain from each other and actually work together as a team?

There’s been abundant research in universities and companies on what are the habits and norms of. Creative and collaborative and cohesive teams. And the research all points to a set of pretty fixed practices that when these things are resident on a team, they lead to higher performance, a greater sense of purpose and lower attrition.

But it makes. Matter more people makes them enjoy it more and it dramatically increases the output you get from any team. So what, what Rena and I did is we took these practices from academia from university research and we commercialized. We took this research and we turned it into a marketplace of shared team experiences.

So these range from a lot of conversation with a a former poker player to writing rap poetry with a rapper turn poet to coffee tastings. So it’s a marketplace of like 40 or so and growing different experiences that you do with your team. And they’re all about 45 minutes long. And after your team does one of these experiences.

You will notice that they have more, they feel closer to each other. They trust each other more and they feel more connected. And for teams that do this on a recurring basis, like basically once every 90 days they will report that these feelings not only persist, they increase and then they’ll measure reductions and attrition elevated creativity higher collaboration, and they rate their manager higher.

They rate their company higher. And, you know, ultimately what you’re able to do is get a group of people that felt like just a group of people and turn it into a team. And that’s really, that’s really the mission.

Ken Kanara: That’s incredible. One of the most interesting things that I found having experienced as a client was just the amount of, kind of vulnerability that we’re able to experience even within our own team that we hadn’t before.

Could you, could you talk maybe a little bit about how you’re, how you’re creating that and how you’re making that happen?

Michael McCarroll: Yeah, so vulnerabilities. We nobody wants to go be vulnerable, right? It, it suggests that we’re gonna put ourselves in a position of weakness. And so if you want to get a group of individuals who typically emphasize their strength and confidence and turn it into group of individual individuals, that’s willing to be vulnerable.

You need some form of a catalyst. So the catalyst can’t be dramatic. You can’t, you know, make the room dark and started to play on music and get people to do that. So it needs to be pretty natural. It needs to be pretty organic. It needs to be something that feels like part of what you would do within a company.

So there’s a principle and organizational behavior that is Context setting for vulnerability. And what it says is if I create a context, if I basically tell a story so that people are not being vulnerable, kind of in the standard workplace, but they’re doing that in the context of something that you set up, people are willing to share more and every time somebody shares more in is vulnerable.

They like each other. They like everybody in the room, more that they just shared that way. And then everybody in the room will rate that individual as more trustworthy because got that individual just shared something that was clearly vulnerable. So that’s all from university studies. So what we’ve done is taken that concept of creating a space from vulnerability and made it something that can fit into the middle of your Workday.

And that’s what corporate teams will do now as a way of building that cohesion to create a sense of.

Ken Kanara: Yeah, it was incredible that you were able to do it in a virtual way to, for me. Okay. So we, we just talked about different teams. Talk to us a little bit about what kind of companies and organizations.

Irina Egorova: Yeah. So we’ve worked in this all kinds of enterprises from large to small, across multiple industry technology pharmaceuticals manufacturing. We can see that there’s a probably with connection and team connection resonates a lot across organizations and as teams become more distributed the problem becomes more acute and people crave connection cliff.

Trust. So we pretty much find that every team after the experience it’s in battery experience, some get the chance to get a little bit more vulnerable spend some time together, get to know a little bit more about each other. They feel more connected, more active, more happier it’s work.

Doesn’t matter what they do. Day-to-day it applies to plead through very important tool set of industries and companies.

Ken Kanara: And is it just, and is it just teams internally or are you seeing clients use it with external parties? What, I guess maybe what are some of the different use cases that have come up.

Michael McCarroll: Yeah, I think the interesting thing is when you when you think about sort of step back and say, well, what are the, what are all the different contexts in which I take a group of individuals?

And if I can create some sense of team among those individuals, I get to a better outcome. And those are really the use cases that, that That people come and use team rotary for. So the most popular one, the most consistent one is obviously the concept of an a functional team. Right? I’m an engineering manager.

I have 12 engineers on my team. That’s what we would call a functional team. As you can imagine that’s a pretty standard use case. But in some ways it’s not even the most powerful one that gives a group of people that need to be collaborative with each other and gets that going. But the second one is when there’s a cross-functional team.

So a cross-functional team would be now it’s engineering and dev ops. And a lot of organizations not only obviously are functional teams distributed, but cross-functional teams can be distributed, not only across locations, but across geographies. And now you’re getting a group of individuals that actually think a little bit differently.

And because of that, they actually have inherent distrust or siloing, and it’s getting those individuals to feel more connected and cohesive. So in just about any piece of knowledge work that we do, it’s, it’s super rare that you don’t have a cross-functional. So the second big use case is really cross-functional teams.

Then there’s a third one, which is the concept of a sales team. So anytime you’re trying to sell an enterprise product to a customer, you’ve got you know, obviously a sales rep and a sales team on the seller side, you’ve got a buying team on the other side. No transaction’s going to happen, unless there’s a sense of trust, a sense of common purpose, shared understanding, and even a sense of what are the norms going to be in the sale and the relationship post-sale.

So in all those different contexts, you have companies that are now using team raderie as a way of you know effectively stimulating catalyzing, lubricated. That type of cooperation that you want to have. Across different types of people. And that’s how you get these teams to for more quickly develop trust rapidly and get to better outcomes than you would have generated otherwise

Ken Kanara: That’s incredible. And Michael. I mean, so walk me through, I guess, kind of how you thought about this. I mean, it was in the height of COVID, right? Like how, I guess, how did, how did the idea happen? Is it because of COVID like, I mean, it’s only been it’s, it’s been just a little over a year. If I’m not mistaken.

Irina Egorova: Yeah, that’s correct. The thought of the company in plaintiff’s quainter, but you know, the idea has been there for a longer time. So for example, I have a long history of working visited with the teams globally distributed teams. I had a distributed team at SAP multiple distributed teams at BCG.

Even the politest agents, our sales team was distributed and The super, that seems to have really powerful. As a combined people have so many different big clouds with different perspectives, but it’s really like important and really current than when team collected connection. And they really require different ways to engage engage with each other.

And As a manager I used to leave you know, articles in Harvard business review and China plan understand how to make a connection better and how to build trust between team members while located like in different shooters. So we felt a problem for a long time. And started the company and Spain to the fancy bit course.

You know, the problem became helix. We have to do something and we have to find them modern way to help teams stay connected with the chapter.

Ken Kanara: Well, as someone who whose, whose company you got our entire company dancing all at once I can say you guys are doing a good job at teamraderie.

So this is the. Kind of go around together, you two as a, as a partnership. Can you tell us a little bit about lattice engines and what, and what you did there and, and, and you know, how you got connected and what it’s like to work together this time around?

Michael McCarroll: Yeah, so Irina and I met when when we were at Madison engine.

So I was one of the founders of that company. It’s the one that was started by a few other alumns with consulting backgrounds and What we what we were trying to do was sell what was a pretty complicated product into a a pretty confused market and With a whip at a relatively high dollar value sale.

So one of the things that became really important was to just kind of change or evolve the way that you sold because we were selling something, it was an analytics oriented product relatively new to the market and you really needed to find people who were Really empathetic with what customers were trying to achieve and could very quickly kind of take what we were selling and quickly turn it into something that the customer understood is exactly what they needed to solve.

The problem that they had. So taking the sale very much away from me and turning it into focused on you, the customer I met arena back in 2014. And what ultimately Rita joined the organization initially leading solution consulting ultimately leading sales teams and what was really striking about her was, you know, purchase an exceptional person.

But in part, she had this background, obviously, Ken, that you’re familiar with, which is consulting backgrounds. You. You’re you immediately understand it’s all about the client. You immediately understand, needs to be framed in their problem. And you immediately understand that there’s not one size fits all solutions.

So Irina was incredibly effective at this At personally ultimately can we leverage your organization to hire both solution consultants as well as ultimately sales reps, salespeople? And so the context for his meeting was trying to solve a really tricky go to market challenge. We solved it with a skill set.

Obviously the Rita had in, in spades and we scaled it with a skillset. I think that your, you know, certainly your listener base has in space and, you know, look fundamentally. It was, we had an incredibly effective go to market motion really efficient from a cost standpoint. So consultants aren’t cheap people with consulting backgrounds aren’t cheap, but it is an incredibly effective and ultimately the inefficient way.

To go run a sales organization. And that was, that was the context that we met. And now obviously a bit of why we became involved with ECA.

Ken Kanara: That’s great. And, and I w I want to dig into kind of I already know how, how you kind of grew the business from a sales and commercial perspective, but before we go there, I guess, so, Michael, one of the things that.

Our users are really interested is like, okay, you, you make a, you make a transition from consulting to technology. My understanding is you didn’t have a lot of experience in product. Obviously you had, you, you know, you, you were interested in engineering, but how do you, how do you make that jump and kind of like, what are you missing?

Michael McCarroll: Yeah, I, I think that’s a, it’s a fair observation, which is when you come with a consulting background, you have a. You’ve got phenomenal instincts around service and phenomenal instincts around empathy. And you tend to you tend to not, I think, first about product. So I think, you know, walking into a product company from a consulting background, That’s certainly one of the things that you need to be cognizant of and kind of know that you’ve got that blind spot.

Yeah, I would tell you that when you’re doing that in the software business you get reminded incredibly quickly how important product is. And the reason is, is like nothing that you just did can be recurring unless there’s actually a product behind it. And so look, I think, you know, in, you know, in the real estate is actually, she had been.

At a product company SAP before she went to consulting. And so she in fact, in, in certainly showed up with that orientation. I think that was probably, you know, for myself when I made that transition from consulting into entrepreneurship, probably the thing that was the hardest quarter for Nita around.

Was orienting around the centrality of product. Obviously the importance of rapid service around that, but the centrality of product to the, to the offering.

Ken Kanara: Okay. No, that, that makes a lot of sense. And then, okay, so then how many, how many years in Irene were, I guess was Michael into the business when you kind of came in and, and then talk a little bit about kind of how you grew it from a sales perspective?

Because I think that’s a, that’s a really interesting story.

Irina Egorova: Michael has been in business, I think for more than five years when I came, came in and look, they had we had the creative custom sold radius. I was fortunate to have create references and case status in technology industry. We had an objective also.

Penetrate new industries and new customers. And I think this is what I’ve been focusing on in your salary. So if we went beyond the technology industry and the expanded into distribution in Spain expanded into manufacturing there’s customers like use foods, Honeywell, and this was a really exciting time when they hit.

If you go out to get them as a customer, how to use modern technology to solve their go-to-market challenges. And so that’s what we started today. We’ve been very successful and then the horns it team to sort of continue this motion and to continue the growth across industries. So. Well, they also noticed about the consultants at the, not everybody had big clouds in product a and product joining us thinks the experience in the consultant, people knew on so fast.

And the course people jumped from product to project, to project, and they’re very used to new teams. They’re very used to new subject matters and it takes and stylish. Short time for people to get up to speed and what product can do on use cases of the product. And they pretty fast in aligning this use cases, helping customers align this use cases to product capabilities.

Ken Kanara: And I read the the other thing I think. Particularly well at lattice, it was, you brought on a lot of, kind of former consultants and train them to have a more commercial focus. But so if you’re thinking about kind of, if I’m a consultant, that’s, let’s say I’m leaving McKinsey or BCG or something, and I want to get into a more commercially focused role.

In enter, you know, enterprise says, what, what, what are the things that like I’m missing or I’m kind of coming in a little bit, kind of green on that that I probably need to think about

Irina Egorova: Yeah. I would say two things if yours, but do you prepare. People, this might have different perspectives and backgrounds and it’s people who think differently than you in many cases, but use it as an opportunity and fully in place because it couldn’t be a nation that’s really powerful.

So that’s, I think mum seeing that jumps out and second thing though, you have, you know, many skills that are applicable and you can be really successful in. You know, and, you know, analytical approach and your customer service approach, but most likely you’ll still face many ups and downs. The course, they will be so many things that we don’t really control.

And if you look different from consultant days, right? When. Nick , you need to do your analysis and you need to create your slides. And you know, you know what to do to be successful more or less, but in the sales career, there are so many changes that are completely outside of your control. You know, budget shifts people leave companies.

So get shaded it and you know, T that that’s an opportunity to also to evolve and to be more comfortable with that find new ways to achieve your goals. And ultimately it will be maybe if you want an experience.

Ken Kanara: And I know, you know, if you’re running any kind of sales team or sales organization, obviously metrics and KPIs around activities are super important.

How do you marry up something like that with a large value sale, like you were doing at lattice where. You know, w H how did you kind of, how do you, I guess, how do you juxtapose those two things?

Irina Egorova: Well, look, you need to be really rigorous in how you run your book of business, right? So you, right. We have like large deals and it’s feel it hard to forecast against the deals.

The close. But that’s why you have to find a way to have many deals in your portfolio, many, many deals in your pipeline. And the really you go to some family ties in your effort in such a way that you still mute your. From quarter to quarter. So it’s easy to say, it’s not easy to do that, but if you have like if it don’t overly focus on just one you know, on both customer and you understand that you need to have a portfolio. There’ll be, there’ll be successful.

Ken Kanara: And one of the things I think that I’ve observed at least with former consultants is sales or commercials or whatever. However you want to call it. It’s almost become like a bad word. Because actually I don’t necessarily know that, that the reason for that. But did you encounter any of that when you were onboarding or, or, or kind of bringing folks up to speed.

Irina Egorova: As there is, of course, certain perception of the role that exists. But at the same time we see that the definition of the role requirements does evolve, evolve in and the customers. And I was getting more and more advanced than the understanding of different than we need. There are so many informal and there’s so much information available across digital channels and, or your customer comes to you like really prepare it to say, look, they know all the basics.

They have really specific questions. They have really specific requests. So I think it was time as the expectations of the role and the definitional sort of role changes. Some people realize. You need to be an expert in your domain. You need to be really attentive to what your customer wants. You need to be really skillful in applying your product.

There’s a specific need source of business. So it’s not just, you know, Dial and smile. It’s it’s about establishing relationships. It’s about becoming a part of a customer C, right? So that’s a, it’s a really critical capability and requirements and expectations that we even hire right now.

I guess, like was time, they’ll see one more sales people who have like Sheila’s chosen analytical skills at similar to the skills that consultant companies develop in people really a strong customer emphasis skills. And this is this is a creative profession that helps you, helps you build that and it helps you.

It helps kids develop develop this skillset.

Michael McCarroll: Yeah. Again, if you, if you look back 20 years 20 years ago, if a customer wanted to buy something, they did not have a lot of places to get information. And the role of a salesperson was to give you information. And that’s what salespeople were. They were people that would give you information.

So. Roll forward 20 years today, information is everywhere and it’s readily at hand. So a sales person’s skill and, you know, we still have the, you know, the things like the smile and dial meme right. The sticks around like those things are an antiquated way to think about. Sales and to Ray’s point today a the way it says sales percent successful, they have to make themselves valuable, right?

If you’re not valuable people, don’t call you back or email you back and have to create value. So what Irina’s saying is, look, the skills you developed as a consultant actually allow you to add value in the sales process. So it’s becoming, you know, I think any. Sales academy is teaching consulting skills to people that want a career in sales.

You’ve got consultants now that can actually just show up with those skills. I remember this is, you know, it was like 15 years ago, but when, when right after we started lattice, I told my mom that we were splitting out responsibilities and I was going to focus on sales and she sort of looked at me as one of the founders of the company.

She kind of looks at me and say, Don’t you think you could find something better to do. And her point was like the way she regarded salespeople, you know, circa mid two thousands was it was the, the guy that sold her an Oldsmobile. Right. And you know, she, I didn’t think her son should, should, should be doing that.

And you know, you just need to explain to him that. You know that that’s not what sales is anymore. It’s nothing, it’s nothing like that at all. It’s connecting the customer to the problem that you solve or connecting them really, you know, digging in with the customer like that. And that’s absolutely the skill of a consultant has in spades, right?

So they’re like actually quite set up to be successful after making a couple of transitions, but to be really successful in this field,

Ken Kanara: that’s such a great point. And it it’s it’s thanks for sharing that story. Michael w one of the things that. Tell people that come in to kind of like our company too, is like, it’s like, okay, what’s, what’s the secret sauce?

And like, it, it sounds, I hope Google or Spotify doesn’t flag me for my explicit comment, but my best advice is just honestly, give a shit. Like, if you care about the customer, if you care. The, you know, the outcomes that you’re driving, if you genuinely authentically do care you’ll succeed pretty, pretty greatly.

Cause I think people are more perceptive than, than you kind of can that, and then people realize, right. Just in terms of, you know, I don’t know, I I’m probably belaboring the point, but thanks for sharing that story

Michael McCarroll: now look absolutely. Right. Just put a, put a lift on that one. You brought up authenticity, right?

So, you know, you kind of say for any transaction to have. The fundamental thing you need to have is trust. Right? Fundamentally, no transaction happens if there’s not trust. Okay. So let’s say that’s true. Well, how do you, how do you build trust? So it turns out actually there are like three dimensions of trust and one of those dimensions is authenticity.

And if the person to do your point about giving a, if the person that’s trying to sell you something. Does not appear to care meaningfully and invest themselves. They don’t come across as authentic and you don’t trust them. And that’s it like? Francis fray is a professor at Harvard business school.

She’s the world’s foremost authority on trust. She’s she’s part of the part of team raderie advisory board founding. And she’s defined trust as having these, as she describes it as a three legged stool. And what she describes is if any one of those legs is it rock solid, the stool wobbles, and she calls those trust wobbles and in an environment like Salesforce.

Totally unforgivable, right? Like once you wobble, you can’t recover. And authenticity is one of the, you know, one of the three, one of the three legs of the of the trust triangle. So super, super important, obviously for people to be authentic the core element of how you build trust.

Ken Kanara: Yeah. And bringing it, I guess, bringing it back to kind of like team raderie.

One of the things I observed as an, as I call it an early client of yours, when you were at, when, when you were starting, the business is you both were very involved in, in that, in that process from an early. Early on point of view. Right? So even though it is a business that provides experience virtually, and you can book those appointments online, I did observe as a, as a client that you were very involved and I, and I felt like part of that was to, to understand the customer better.

Is, is that, was that intentional?

Michael McCarroll: Well, look, I, I think you have a couple of things, so. The our business launched right in late 2020. And what we have right now in line is is a marketplace. So you can go and you can select experiences. One of the things you’ll be seeing later this year is an ability for a manager to go in and basically say, here’s a few things I’m seeing on my team.

And then our SiteWatch you recommend what experience you. Would take so it’s, it’s only to say I appreciate your valuing, our authenticity and caring. We’re actually working to automate that. In addition, but you know, I think the, you know, the point is look for any At any, in any transaction, the person on the other side of it needs to know that, you know, it’s the real, you, they need to see that you care about their success and, you know, team raderie or lattice or anything people do.

Those are those. Now two of the three elements of what you need for to build trust with you.

Ken Kanara: Yeah, no, I think I was more, it was more, probably a commentary on how you both invested that kind of extra time upfront to kind of like understand the customer. So it’s like in startup world, I’ve heard the expression do things that don’t have.

Right. So first you do things that don’t scale so that you can scale them. And, and I got the sense that you were really trying to kind of like understand that so that it can become a lot kind of easier to automate and kind of like easier to do because now when I set up experiences, right, it’s, it’s a much more kind of like seamless process.

So totally understand that Excellent. Well, I guess one of the other things that I wanted to cover, so you both come from very impressive background, academic backgrounds. One of the things we’re developing is kind of like a library for folks to kind of learn about different books that you might recommend that have been kind of pivotal in, in both of your careers.

We’d love to hear you talk about what you might recommend to our audience.

Michael McCarroll: Sure. I’ll give you two that I really like. So there’s a book from the woman’s name is Amy Edmonson and the book is called teaming. So team and then ING. What I like about it is it’s you know, it’s available. It tells you things that you already know, except for the fact that you don’t actually practice them.

So therefore deserves to be read it. It goes through effectively All the research behind what it takes for this bird teammate, right. Which is a group of people collaborating together to create value in an organization. So I think it’s a great read. It just reminds you of what the fundamentals. So yeah, it’s like watching them.

It’s like watching a masterclass video from Steph Curry, right. How to dribble, how to shoot. Right. These are things that every, everybody should know how to team teaming. So that’s a really good one. That came out a few years ago, so it’s not a new book. So the second one to pick up is Adam Grant’s book.

Think again came out last year. What I like about the book is it does a really nice job of revealing the various biases that we all have and the way that we make decisions and becoming aware of it just means that you’re less likely to make those mistakes in the future. So I found that book really helpful.

Ken Kanara: Awesome. Thanks for sharing. I read a lot about you.

Irina Egorova: Yeah, I can. I can share a book that might be interesting for everybody who is interested in becoming a seller. And everybody who’s a buyer. So it’s an interesting book that was published, I believe last year it’s called it’s and bullshit. And it’s basically a very researched you know, Book such.

So how to, how to understand if people are saying shoes or not and different linguistic cheeks, that so you if, if, if it’s if it’s too old, it’s not, it’s just, you know, a great entertaining, but at the same time, they searched back leaves that everybody can, can find.

Ken Kanara: Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much.

So I guess before we wrap up, I’m far listeners want to learn a little bit more about kind of team raderie or, you know, learn about the experiences that you guys are providing. How would they get in touch?

Michael McCarroll: Yeah, the, obviously the website team so it’s comradery except with the word team in front of it.

That’s one. The second is I think, you know, we would love Ken to help, one-on-one with anybody that’s looking. For a specific way to get started. We get asked a lot of how do I get started with my team? What should I do first, second, third, and both Irina and I. So Rena is Irina at T monitory and I’m Michael at team raderie

and we both would love to help you get started with something, explain why you start with what you start with. And ultimately we have a whole set of digital resources that tell you how to reinforce what comes out of each experience, but we’d love to help you get started on that journey. And we just believe everybody can be a pretty pretty gifted manager when they make this part of their, their management team.

Ken Kanara: Awesome. Well, I, I truly love what you guys are doing and it’s, it’s so fun to see two entrepreneurs that did something, you know, very analytical and, you know, D V very let’s call it like like software, you know, like a hard software, hard technology business make make a pivot to something that. Is in a way softer, but also very much kind of research backed and you know, definitely affecting change just in a, in a different way.

So really love what you guys are doing. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Yeah, you bet. And so for those of our listeners that want to hear more episodes like this, make sure to subscribe to beyond consulting on either Spotify or apple. And if you want to learn a little bit more about the podcast, it’s beyond And if you want to get in touch with us directly, it’s until next week.

Thanks so much. And we will talk to you then .

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